Carol Jenkins: Hello and thanks so much for joining the Invisible Americans podcast with Jeff Madrick and Carol Jenkins. We address the travesty of child poverty here.

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Jeff Madrick: There are nearly 13 million children living in serious material deprivation in America and we don't see them. They are our invisible Americans and we plan to change that.

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Carol Jenkins: A couple of words about us. The podcast is based on Jeff's book, Invisible Americans, The Tragic Cost of Child Poverty. He's an economics writer, author of seven and co-author of another four books on the American economy.

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Jeff Madrick: And Carol is an Emmy-winning journalist, activist and author, most recently president of the ERA Coalition, working to amend the Constitution to include women.

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Carol Jenkins: And we are longtime colleagues and friends. In New York State, one of every five children lives in poverty. That's one in five. That's over 700,000 children in urban and rural communities. The governor of New York, Kathy Hochul, has released a budget that she says will help the state's children.

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Gov. Kathy Hochul: Families with children, they are the ones who need additional relief. And as New York's first mom governor, I know personally that the earliest years are the most expensive. Diapers, formula, clothes that they outgrow every three months. And that's why back in 2023, I worked with the legislature to make our child tax credit available for kids under the age of four for the first time ever. And this extended a financial lifeline over 600,000 more families because it made zero sense to me that this credit only came available when our kids were almost in kindergarten. And this year I want to support our families even more, tripling the maximum benefit to $1,000. $1,000 for babies and kids up to four, and in 2026, we'll boost the credit for school-age children even higher to $500. For parents, it's more food on the table, more supplies in the backpack for 2.7 million children. If you think about it, it makes good economic sense. Every dollar invested in the Child Tax Credit will generate $1.25 in economic activity. That's spent in local stores, spent in our local businesses. Under my proposal, every child will get free breakfast and free lunch in school, so children who are in need are spared the embarrassment and stigma of standing out among their peers. That is now over. My friends, what I'm talking about overall It adds up to nearly $5,000.

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Gov. Kathy Hochul: Now if there's cynics among you, you don't believe me, pull out your own cell phone, get out the calculator and you can check it. Let's see what this means for a family, let's say two little ones, $1,000 each, child tax credit, one school age, another $500, Meal savings, $1,600 for that child. While you're at it, throw in the $500 for your family rebate, plus your tax cut savings. Now we're approaching $5,000 in real money back in your pockets. That's how we make New York more affordable. And we will never Stop finding ways to put money back in your pockets. This is something I've done every year as governor.

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Carol Jenkins: Now, the governor and legislator will negotiate over a raised child tax credit that includes the youngest and the poorest, free breakfast and lunch, help with child care. Later in this episode, we talk with Kate Breslin, the head of the Schuyler Center, about the state's pledge to cut child poverty in half by the year 2031. But first, New York State's Health Commissioner, Dr. James McDonald. In December of 2024, after the national election, the Invisible Americans podcast was honored to participate in an all-day conference on the effects of poverty on children's health. It was sponsored by the Schuyler Center and Columbia University's Center on Poverty and Social Policy. I spoke in a keynote conversation with Dr. McDonald about the implications for New York State of expected changes on the federal level, including the state's proposed Medicaid and Social Security program called the 1115 waiver. That program is expected to set up several comprehensive health and support centers for families. Now, we don't know the final outcome of that yet, but here's an excerpt of the conversation.

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Dr. James McDonald: If we look to the federal transition act. You know, we're looking at the New York State Department of Health a couple of different ways. One is the mission of the State Health Department, which is protect and promote the health and well-being for all, built on a foundation of equity, that mission doesn't change regardless of the federal transition. And part of why I want to make that really clear is I know what my mission is, my team knows what my mission is, so we really need to carry out our mission. There are some things in the federal transition that concern me. The narrative that's out there right now, I'm not sure it's constructive from their part, you know, because quite frankly, I don't think anybody feels reassured when they're talking about just blanket cuts to everything, you know, because one of the things that kind of implies is that things weren't thoughtfully constructed. And one of the things I've just noticed is that most health policies, whether you like them or not, are thoughtfully constructed. And one of the things I've learned, too, is that it's just really hard to deconstruct something without hurting people. We have a really big Medicaid program in New York State, really big. We have a really big Affordable Care Act program in New York State. We call it the Essential Plan. When I say New York State, I mean $13 billion for our Essential Plan. Our Medicaid program's $83 billion. These are really big programs for us. They just can't be changed quickly without hurting people. And one of the things that concerns me is when you hear this narrative, I understand they're appealing to a certain mindset, But what you say to some people, which they might hear save money, what other people are hearing is you don't care about me and you're willing to hurt me. And that concerns me. Now, one of the things I'll throw out there, too, is when I look at just issues like vaccines, well, states regulate who gets a vaccine. So that's something I still have a great deal of control over with the legislature. When you look at fluoride, that's local municipal governments that regulate who gets fluoride in their water. And those are things I can use my voice and be helpful on. And then for other things, when it comes to, you know, insurance, we do have some protections built in, right? Like Medicaid, for example, just cannot be deconstructed quickly. Same with the Essential Plan. Like, you know, our 1332 waiver, our Affordable Care Act waiver, right now goes through most of 2028. So you just can't change these things on a dime. So I don't know how much of this is just people talking, but I worry sometimes people don't understand the measure of their words and how it creates anxiety and stress in real people who are trying to lead real lives in New York State and the country. And a lot of people in New York State and the rest of the country are struggling day to day. And these conversations where you hear these words, they're just, they're anxiety provoking and they're not helpful.

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Carol Jenkins: What do you recommend for those of us in this room, in person and virtually? We want to make sure that our kids can continue to get help.

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Dr. James McDonald: Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for staying informed but being grounded to reality and looking at what really can change and what is just narrative. And part of why I put it in that context is you just shouldn't expect things to change really quickly, but I think there's a lot to be said for using your voice constructively And your voice constructively means, of course, you work with your local electeds. Of course, you work with state electeds. But a lot of times, it's using your own influence to just, one, be informed about what is the truth. You know, one of the things I think about as we're here at Columbia, right, institution of higher education, critical thought is so important. And I think it's really important that we keep ourselves engaged in critical thought and encourage real critical research and look at this stuff that's published and be careful about what we repost to some degree, but also to the extent that it's possible, contribute to scholarly work. You know, if I'm in Columbia, I'm going to say to folks, you're probably in a position to contribute to scholarly work. You're probably in a position to help construct meaningful health policy, not just in New York, but in the United States. So use your skills, use your talent, and a little bit of a thank you for entering the higher education world, by the way, because that requires a fair amount of commitment, too.

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Carol Jenkins: We heard a very substantial report on the investment and the amount of monies to be returned, you know, to this nation if we make the $3,300 investment in our children, you know, in the child tax credit, you know, let's say earned income credit, those things. You know, but we also heard that that takes time. I mean, do we do we have the time for that critical thought to play out?

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Dr. James McDonald: I hope so. I mean, I think, you know, one of the things that are helpful is when you think about tax credits are different than tax deductions, by the way. And I think tax credits are really important. And just because not everybody understands tax code, not suggesting I do, but a tax deduction that lowers how much money you owe in tax or maybe affects a refund. But a tax credit means you get that amount of money if you qualify. So if we have a thousand dollar tax credit, And you qualify and you get $1,000. By the way, $1,000 for a lot of people, it's real money. It makes a real difference. And people do real things like buy real food and pay real rent. And those are real important things to do, right? And it's really interesting to me, like when you think about one of the things we saw during the pandemic, there was a lot we learned from the pandemic. And I worry sometimes we're too willing to forget some of those lessons. But when you think about the earned income tax credit during the pandemic, we think about some of the direct aid to people during the pandemic. Those are real beneficial to real people, you know, and people weren't running off willy nilly, just gambling at casinos with that money, right? They were paying rent, buying real food, doing real good things for their children. And one of the things we saw during the pandemic, which really was a terrible thing for us, but like a lot of good happened during that time for children. And that's a good thing.

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Carol Jenkins: Well, the poverty rate was cut almost in half.

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Dr. James McDonald: Because of a lot of things that the government did that really weren't that complicated. They gave people money.

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Carol Jenkins: Expanded, and it also came to them in monthly installments, too, which was essential. And two pieces of that that have to be considered are undocumented children that need to be supported and the babies that are now covered in New York State. at least. A word about our podcast. Jeff Madrick, my partner in this project, wrote the book Invisible Americans, the tragic costs of child poverty, and supported a lot of the work that was done here to try to get the child tax credit. And Chris, I think you remember Jeff saying, you know, or people telling Jeff, it'll never happen. Of course it happened. Our philosophy at the podcast is give the parents the money, give it in cash, don't ask them any questions, but we understand name and address may be necessary, but to sort of eliminate, you know, this huge structure that, you know, feeds itself and not our kids.

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Dr. James McDonald: Well, I think there's a fair amount of wisdom in that. I mean, I think parents generally want to do the best for their kids. I think if you can relieve some of that pressure and stress, it gives them space to do that. And you saw a lot of that during the pandemic, which is, but that's where the earned income tax credit in particular can be really helpful for folks. But I think it really gets this larger issue is like, you know, how much do you need to control parents? You know, and I think to a larger extent, it's better to let parents do the right thing for their kids. They know what they are. I like to reduce barriers. Like when I think about nutrition for kids, You know, I'd love the WIC program to be as available as possible for everyone who qualifies, but in New York State, for example, only 57% of those eligible for WIC are even signing up for it. Now, we're trying to get more people to know about WIC, but you know, the federal funding on WIC hasn't been, it's been kind of flat for the last decade or so. And this is one of those things where I think when you look at, really, when we look at health equity, one of the things I think about with health equity is, and by the way, when I talk about health equity, just so I know we have a common definition among I think about health equity work as being intentional work. And one simple way of defining it that we use at the Department of Health is just recognizing not everyone has the same starting point in life, not everyone has the same advantages, yet everyone deserves a fair and just opportunity for the best health outcomes. Now when you look at WIC, achieving health equity actually benefits everybody. And here's an example with WIC How, right? When you look at how does achieving health equity benefit everyone, Nobody benefits from children being hungry at school. No one benefits from children being hungry period, right? But what happens when children are well-nourished? Do they do better in school? They do. What happens when children are well-nourished? They're happier. What happens to their parents? They're happier, too. When you think about WIC, it helps people who are pregnant, too, as well. There's no advantage to people who are pregnant not being well-nourished. And this is one of the reasons why it's really important for us to help WIC become Those who are eligible, we'd like everyone eligible to get WIC. And I think it's just another example of how when you achieve health equity, everyone benefits. And I think we need to move away from health equity being like the haves giving to the have-nots. That's really not what health equity is. Health equity is really about recognizing not everyone has the same starting point in life, not everyone has the same advantages, but everyone deserves a fair and just opportunity for the best health outcomes. Remember one of the advantages I talked about earlier? I grew up in a family business. Most people don't have that advantage. That really helped me.

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Carol Jenkins: Right. So almost every single survivor of child poverty that we've interviewed on our podcast has expressed the experience that they still relive of being with their mothers in some government office trying to fill out the paperwork. and watching their mothers lose their minds either literally or figuratively because it was just too complicated. What's your view about the paperwork that's required? I know that there are federal requirements to that as well as our state part of it. Have we done everything that we could do in New York State to simplify the process?

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Dr. James McDonald: One of the things I want to bring into the conversation, though, is there's something we did in New York State called the 1115 waiver. Precisely. Yeah. And there's really, by the way, there's no reason why anyone should know what the 1115 waiver is. But if I could just negotiate this briefly with you, it's like it's an agreement the Department of Health made with the Office of Health Insurance Programs or the Department of Health made an agreement with Center for Medicaid Medicare Services. It's a seven and a half billion dollar agreement. It goes until March 31st of 2027. When I say in this group, by the way, when anything's got a waiver attached to it, the question you should ask is, well, if you're a waiver, what are you being waived from, right? So when we did the 1115 waiver, it's demonstration projects. What we negotiated for over a year with CMS was we'll do these demonstration projects. And if we do this demonstration project, we think the lower the total cost of care for Medicaid, And so, we'll do these projects, but we want you to give us money to do it and a lot of it. So, they did, right? So, that's a cool thing. But one of the things in the 1115 waiver is something called social care networks, $3.4 billion to create nine social care networks across New York State. Now, what social care networks do is create these networks, these nine different entities, that will work on optimizing individuals' social determinants of health, how big people have advantages. If your problem is housing, helping you secure housing. If your problem is transportation, helping you accomplish transportation. If you're going to the emergency room all the time, deserve a private care provider, help with that too. And part of what I'm saying is what you see where CMS went, where the New York State Department of Health is going, is recognizing If we're just going to focus on paying for care that goes on in an exam room, emergency room, operating room, delivery room, or any one of those other rooms, we're spending a fortune in health care. But am I really keeping you healthy? Well, the answer is no. Because when you think about really what keeps us healthy, it's our social determinants of health, right? Like what's going to improve the length and quality of your life? You need adequate housing, reliable transportation, a good social network, you need a decent education. You need to make sure that your abilities are allowed and you're able to understand things in the language.

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Carol Jenkins: You can see the full conversation and the panel discussions on our website, theinvisibleamericans.com. The Schuyler Center for Analysis and Advocacy, based in Albany, has been working on behalf of children for over 153 years. Kate Breslin is its current president and CEO, and also a key member of the New York State Child Poverty Reduction Advisory Council, tasked with cutting childhood poverty in half by 2031. That's within six years from now. So, Kate, you're our guru, our New York State poverty guru. You know everything. You've done everything. And thank you so much for what the Schuyler Center has been providing to this conversation. And I know that you are the impetus to the Child Poverty Reduction Act and its committee. If you could start there, we know that we've got a deadline coming up of 2031.

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Kate Breslin: Well, a little bit about the Child Poverty Reduction Act. It was a bill that passed nearly unanimously in the New York State Legislature. So that means people on both sides of the aisle, all sides of the aisle, voted affirmatively that New York should aim to cut child poverty in half over a decade with attention to racial equity. So, what that tells me is this is an issue that our lawmakers think is important. And that no matter where they live or do work, whether they are in cities or suburbs or rural areas, and kind of no matter what their political stripe is, that they recognize that we need to do something. So that's, I feel really, that gives me hope, a lot of hope. So the law was passed in 2021, and then the governor signed it at the end of 20, this governor, Governor Hochul, signed it at the end of 2021. They made a few changes and sort of finally solidified it in 2022. And it commits the state, as I said, to cutting child poverty in half over a decade with attention to racial equity, because there's just really, A lot of inequity within poverty, you know, the data are really clear that black children are more than twice as likely to experience poverty as their white peers and Latino children as well. So, we need to make sure that as we're trying to drive poverty down, we're also trying to address that sort of big disparity.

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Carol Jenkins: Well, there are those who would be surprised to know that New York is not among the better states when it comes to child poverty What what do we think it? Attributes to this fact that we do not do that.

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Kate Breslin: Well, it's a little hard to say I think um for what it tells us is that We need to act intentionally. So I think there are some who think well when the economy gets better, you know all boats rise or And in fact, history has proved that not to be true. So after the Great Recession and poverty got bad, the economy recovered and by all accounts was thriving after some years, yet child poverty remained stuck. So A, it's not going to trickle down. It's not going to just happen. We need to be intentional about it. And to your point, New York is not a leader. And we like to think of ourselves, we in New York State, you know, I think in some areas really have led. And it's an area where, you know, in fact, it's not gotten better at all. We're nearly in the, around 39 or 40 compared to other states with regard to the percentage of people experiencing poverty. And if you think about it, too, you know, knowing that New York is such a high cost state, You know, that makes, and that the poverty level is sort of, or the poverty measure is similar across the board. It makes it even more frustrating that we are doing so poorly compared to other states.

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Carol Jenkins: I notice the way you phrase it in your statements is that New York has made the choice

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Kate Breslin: Yeah, I think it's important for us to recognize that because the data are really clear that there are things we can do to cut child poverty. And I've listened to your podcast. You've talked, for example, about the federal expansion of the child tax credit that happened for just one year during the pandemic, and then it was allowed to expire. That nearly halved child poverty. That's one very, very clear example of how public policy can reduce Poverty and there are other examples. Um, there are ways of getting actual cash like a tax credit into people's pockets there are ways of getting other resources like food, you know assistance or Rental assistance how you know housing there are other other things that have been shown to reduce poverty So when our policymakers our lawmakers choose not to implement those or choose to do other things they're making a choice. And if we're not pushing them to make those, you know, make the better choices, then we're making a choice too.

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Carol Jenkins: Well, let's talk about Governor Hochul's plan and her state of the state, talking about children. And, you know, we see her with pictures with kids from the Bridge Project, you know, and others, you know, it's like, you know, we get the sense that she is with the children.

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Kate Breslin: Yeah, and our governor in New York, Governor Hochul, talks about being in New York the first mom governor, the first grandma governor. So, yeah, I think, I really do think, again, that we have a lot of opportunity because arguably she gets it that families need cash in their pockets and that they need things like child care assistance and other things like that.

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Carol Jenkins: committee made recommendations. How close are her intentions, the governor's intentions?

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Kate Breslin: I'm on the state's, I'm an appointed person to the state's Child Poverty Reduction Advisory Council and our recommendations came out in December 2024. They include a strengthened child tax credit, a housing program for low-income people, food assistance for non-immigrant or for immigrant people who can't qualify for federal benefits, and some improvements in our public assistance grants, which have just been really astonishingly low. You can't even imagine. The governor's proposal, her budget proposal, just came out in January, in mid-January. One of the big things in it we are delighted about is some major improvements to our child tax credit. I think really important and sometimes overlooked is one structural change that would change who's able to get the full credit. As of right now, the lowest income families who file their taxes don't qualify for the full amount of the child tax credit, which just doesn't really make sense. They qualify just for $100 per year. So, what the governor's proposal would do would be to make sure that those very lowest income tax filers are able to get the full amount, the full credit amount per child. And I know that it's a little wonky. It's a structural change that's very important because it really addresses the low, you know, the lowest income families. And then it would increase the maximum credit for families or for children under four years of age from $330 to $1,000. That is a big difference. That's for children who are, you know, age zero to essentially zero through three. In another year, it would increase the amount for children age four through 16, increase the amount from a maximum of 330 to a maximum of 500. Those are big, those are really big things. We'd like to see the amount be even higher for all kids. We'd like to see it indexed to inflation over time. You know, in some ways, the minute, a flat amount of dollars, you know, some fixed amount of dollars, The minute it gets implemented, it's starting to lose value. Right? So we think there should be ways of making sure that some of these policies keep up with inflation. And then I'll say one more thing, which is that we've discovered in the proposal that it sunsets after a few years. And that's not unusual. Sometimes tax policies are put in place with a sunset date. We think there's enough evidence for the child tax credit. We think there's enough evidence that we shouldn't need to put a sunset date.

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Carol Jenkins: And for those who have estimated that this reduces the child poverty, her plan, by 8%, and we have a great deal more distance, how significant would this, how close is this going to go?

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Kate Breslin: Well, I think the estimates are, yeah, below 10%. What we as a body, and we are The council is a body that was mostly appointed by the governor and some other lawmakers in the legislature. Our proposal was to increase the maximum amount to $1,500 for every child, and that would reduce child poverty by 23%.

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Carol Jenkins: There's a chance to fix it before it is actually voted on?

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Kate Breslin: This is what's so beautiful about these, you know, these sort of democratic processes, right? Where we're at right now is that moment in time where the legislature is considering what the governor has put forward. And there will be budget hearings. They've already started. and there'll be a tax budget hearing in a couple of weeks. We'll be testifying. We are hopeful that our policymakers will find a way to increase the amount of the child tax credit. And I'll say, you know, oftentimes I think we ask, people ask the question, well, who's your opponent? Really, this is about competition for resources. I don't think there's anybody, people on both sides of the aisle have been supportive over the years of the child tax credit. I don't get, I haven't heard, you know, anybody so far saying that we shouldn't be doing it. So then it becomes a question of where do we want to put our resources? How do we want to invest the public dollar? There are 7,000 lobbyists wandering around the halls of the Capitol. And most of them are lobbying for their own vested interests. And there are a handful of us lobbying to lift kids out of poverty.

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Carol Jenkins: We're lobbying for the kids, for sure, but you emphasize housing, though. I think that you've stressed that one of the key things to helping solve homelessness in this country, in this state particularly, is dealing with a housing crisis. And we don't see anything from the governor. I think that there are vouchers that Skylar wanted.

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Kate Breslin: We work with a coalition called New York Can and Child Poverty, and we've together really been advocating for attention to housing. And the advisory council did put forward a recommendation for, as you said, a state housing voucher that would subsidize households that were income eligible. And that too has, you know, all of these things have a price tag. That ended up not being at all considered in the governor's budget this year. There are still many of us who are hopeful that we can see something happen on housing. And I think that's another area where the evidence is very, very clear that housing costs are one of the biggest expenses that families face, that New York has an extremely severe housing problem, homelessness problem. Our comptroller of the state, Comptroller DiNapoli, just in January 2025 put out a report really identifying how much homelessness has increased in the state in the last year or two. It's a real, real problem. As many folks know, almost about half the population lives in New York City, where housing costs are really just extremely high. But throughout the state, it's a challenge. Something has to happen on housing and homelessness. The creation of some sort of a state-level housing voucher program is one of those things. One of the things that our advisory council, you know, really recognizes is different people have different challenges. So, we have to think about there may be people who are relatively, you know, they're living in, they're doubled up, they're with family, and the housing voucher might not get to them. So, we need to think about other ways of getting to them. Or, you know, so that's why we're looking at these multi-pronged solutions. We're looking at tax credits, housing, public assistance, food assistance. And we all agree that childcare, you know, of course, needs to be available. And I think these all fit in very well with You know, the governor's affordability agenda, we keep hearing about, you know, how do we make New York more affordable? How do we stem the loss of families with children from, you know, the loss of them from our state as they move to other places?

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Carol Jenkins: Talk with us a bit about the child care piece of the governor's budget. You know, she again seems to get it, that it is also central to the problem.

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Kate Breslin: The last few years have seen an unprecedented investment in child care assistance, meaning assistance for families in paying, you know, for the child care bills. really a major increase in or expansion in who's eligible for that kind of assistance. And that's been fantastic. And the governor has really kind of played a big hand in that, as have many others in the legislature who've been clamoring for it for years. There's also a Child Care Availability Task Force, which is composed of people from inside the government, including Department of Labor and Office of Children and Family Services, and others who are out in the field. Really, what we'd like to see is universal child care. Child care that it doesn't cost money for the families. Child care right now, if you have an infant, it costs you at least $18,000 a year. You know, so you think about that for somebody who's earning minimum wage, you know. What we found, though, is the big challenge right now is the workforce. The childcare workforce is really just notoriously underpaid. What we see is people leaving the field, even people who love providing care. they can't pay their rent. So the first thing that the task force has identified is that we need to find a way to better compensate the workforce. The child care workforce is, as we call it, the workforce that supports the workforce. Because I can't work if I don't have anywhere to bring my kids. The task force and the advocates have really been making the case that we need to find a way to get what they're calling a workforce compensation fund to help the childcare workforce. What we see in the executive budget this year is a proposal that is around building more facilities. That shows some intention, some understanding that childcare is an important issue. The challenge is we don't have the workforce to be caring for people in those classrooms. So at the moment, the phasing really matters. And before we need, right now we have classrooms that are dark because we don't have the workforce. We have seats that end up having to go empty because there aren't enough providers. So we need to figure out the workforce part of it, you know, number one, soon.

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Carol Jenkins: 2031 used to seem like a long way away, and now it's like it's right around the corner. Your estimate as to whether or not the state is going to make it or not, cut child poverty in half, or what are your prescriptions for getting as close as we can get?

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Kate Breslin: I wouldn't be doing this work if I didn't think we could do it. Well, that's not true. I might be doing it anyway. I think, you know, we're at this moment right now where, especially with the magnitude of cuts that are being threatened at the federal level, I think we have to be attentive to that. I don't think that's any secret that there are some proposals on the table to significantly cut funding that goes to states, right? I don't want to be blind to that. In my mind, it makes the work that we do here in New York State all the more important. I'm not suggesting that we won't see cuts. What we need to be doing, though, is thinking about our resources, like we always do, but maybe even more so working with our state lawmakers and really making sure that we're putting our dollars in the places that will be sort of lifting all boats and creating a stronger community. We know that allowing children to experience poverty costs us money. And you and I have heard from our colleagues at the Center on Poverty and Social Policy at Columbia University that there are estimates in the billion, $60 billion is what it costs for us as a community and as a state. for not addressing child poverty. We've been talking with teachers and they see the impacts of poverty in their classrooms, you know, in children being hungry or unhoused and having a hard time learning. The pediatricians tell us they see this in their exam rooms. They see kids who aren't well-nourished or who are stressed out because their parents are so stressed out. The job of sort of the people that I work with is to make sure that our lawmakers are hearing from all of those people, that it's imperative, that we can't keep pushing it off to the side and saying, no, we'll address that after this other crisis.

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Carol Jenkins: Kate, thank you so much. As always, you come with all the information and the optimism.

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Kate Breslin: Our children need it. Our children and our families, you know, we got to keep at it.

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Carol Jenkins: Exactly. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thanks so much for joining us on the Invisible Americans podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts. But we urge you to visit our website for transcripts, show notes, research, and additional information about our guests and their work. That's www.theinvisibleamericans.com. Please follow us on social media and our new YouTube channel. And our blog posts are up on Medium as well as our website. That's www.theinvisibleamericans.com. Jeff and I will see you the next time.

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