Carol Jenkins: Hello and thanks so much for joining the Invisible Americans podcast with Jeff Madrick and Carol Jenkins. We address the travesty of child poverty here.

Jeff Madrick: There are nearly 13 million children living in serious material deprivation in America and we don't see them. They are our invisible Americans and we plan to change that.

Carol Jenkins: A couple of words about us. The podcast is based on Jeff's book, Invisible Americans, The Tragic Cost of Child Poverty. He's an economics writer, author of seven, and co-author of another four books on the American economy.

Jeff Madrick: And Carol is an Emmy-winning journalist, activist, and author, most recently president of the ERA Coalition, working to amend the Constitution to include women.

Carol Jenkins: And we are longtime colleagues and friends. In today's episode, we have a conversation with Fatima Goss Graves, president of the National Women's Law Center, and Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner, president of MomsRising. And we also hear the words of two congresspeople, children's advocate Rosa DeLauro from Connecticut and New Jersey Senator Cory Booker. A lot is happening quickly that will affect our children living in poverty. On April 1st of 2025, Senator Cory Booker concluded his marathon address on the Senate floor, speaking for over 25 hours to urge us to, among other things, remember the impoverished, including hungry children.

Senator Cory Booker: Fedrock commitments are being broken. Unnecessary hardships are being borne by Americans of all backgrounds. And institutions which are special in America, which are precious, which are unique in our country, are being recklessly, and I would say even unconstitutionally affected, attacked, even shattered. In just 71 days, the President of the United States has inflicted so much harm on Americans' safety, financial stability, the core foundations of our democracy, and even our aspirations as a people for, from our highest offices, a sense of common decency.

Carol Jenkins: On Saturday, April 5th, millions of people in all 50 states of the USA and in other countries gathered on the streets on behalf of many causes, including the elimination of child poverty in America.

Protesters: Donald Trump has got to go!

Carol Jenkins: And on April 9th, Congresswoman Rosa DeLauro reintroduced the American Family Act, which if passed will make permanent the expanded monthly child tax credit that lifted so many millions of children out of poverty. Here's a clip from her news conference at the Capitol.

Representative Rosa DeLauro: The improved expanded child tax credit. It's one that we passed as part of the American Rescue Plan. It was historic, a win for the American people, and the data proves it delivered the greatest middle-class tax cut in a generation. It reached nearly 36 million families, 61 million children, an antidote to child poverty and to inflation. It gave real money back to millions of working families in the in the form of a monthly check, cutting child hunger by a fourth, bringing child poverty to the lowest recorded levels in history. And you know what? It returned $10 for every dollar spent. How? Because the Child Tax Credit helps children learn, learn more, earn more, grow up healthier, it improves educational attainment, it lowers health care costs, and it reduces the encounters with the juvenile justice system. And it lifts a lifetime earning potential. You know, it helps more children access Services like Head Start allows parents the freedom to prioritize work, school, or other personal investments that raise their earning potential. The bill we are proud to reintroduce today, the American Family Act, would create the strongest version of the child tax credit ever. It indexes the value of the credit to inflation, It establishes a baby bonus to help families in that very critical first year. Indexing the child tax credit, which we're not able to do with the American Rescue Plan, is an essential aspect of our plan. It will make sure that the value of the credit is not diminished over time. We have seen too many of our social programs that lose their effectiveness because they do not keep up with what is inflation over time. And we need to have big fights in the Congress about whether to increase that value of the programs, and it's years before we're able to get anything done. Let me just, you know, reference a couple of things here. You know, the Child Tax Credit simply worked. It worked better than just about any other government program anywhere. It worked! And we need to start 2025 advocating loudly for the American Family Act. And you know, it shouldn't be a partisan issue. I have to say this. There are Republicans like Senator Mitt Romney, Senator Josh Hawley, even Vice President J.D. Vance have supported a child tax credit because the evidence that has helped families is really so overwhelming. It helped people like Johnny Walls, a technician in West Virginia, who told the Daily Caller, a conservative news outlet, and I quote, the child tax credit enabled me to pay my rent. It meant that I had a place to live. I knew that no matter what, my son and I had a roof over their heads. And people like Reagan, who couldn't be with us today, who had the Child Tax Credit supported her family during the pandemic and afterward. They're not isolated stories. Millions of Americans just like those whose lives were changed by the Child Tax Credit. And as the 2017 tax cuts expire, Congress will have to decide. Do we listen to the massive corporations, the biggest corporations that are trying to lock in billions more in profits? Or do we have a child tax credit? Republican leadership has already shown their hand. They want to give corporate lobbyists everything they ask for and then some, ignoring the voices of their own side calling for a change. The expanded child tax credit, it did lift millions of children out of poverty. It provided economic security to the middle class, to the working class, and to vulnerable families. We'll risk becoming a footnote in history unless we fight for it. We can't allow that to happen. My promise to all of you is that I will fight as hard as I can with every ally, any ally that I can find on either side of the aisle, to make sure that the child tax credit is the top of our policy agenda. The time to act is now. The cost of living crisis is growing. Congress has the best tool to address it sitting at our fingertips. This is not the moment for half measures or a compromise. Quite frankly, I don't want to hear It's all that we can get. Baloney. We need to get the whole nine yards here. And it's time for bold and courageous action. I know my colleagues will not shrink from these goals, and we're not going to accept pennies on the dollar. We need to respond to the needs of the American people. And if Republicans shrink from this challenge and refuse to join Democrats in order to keep their promises, the American people will never forget.

Carol Jenkins: The future of the child tax credit, Medicaid, Social Security, and so many other supports for our children will be the subject of intense negotiations in Congress. On April 10th, the GOP-led Congress passed its tax bill that hinges on huge cuts in spending Many believe our children and families will pay the price. Fatima Goss Graves is president of the powerful National Women's Law Center. Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner heads up Moms Rising, representing millions of members. Their two organizations also lead the Women's Equity Coalition of more than 100 organizations working on the issues of children, women, and families. Thank you both so much for joining us today. As we record, we are just a couple of days away from the hands-off protests around the world. Why don't we start there, just so that we can get an update on – Chris and I know that you were engaged with one of the partners in forming this, what turned out to be, quite frankly, miraculous participation. So, how did it come about and how do you feel about the results of it?

Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner: I am thrilled that so many people in small towns, in medium towns, in big cities turned out and showed up. They organized one another. They got together. They made the most glorious, hilarious, and powerful signs. And people were on the streets. I personally had the most delightful moment that I have to share with everyone, because I'm still on cloud nine. Nana called me up and Nana said, Kristin, could you please make me a sign that says stop Trump's war in America? And I said, why, yes, Nana, I can. She said, it needs to be red, white, and blue because it's patriotic to say stop Trump's war on America. And I was like, yes, it does. And then she was like, could you please come to my senior living facility and we can all go march together? And I was like, absolutely. And do you know what? The senior living facility had super organized for everybody living there to turn up. And this is what it's going to take. Because once we got to the downtown where we went, which was in Issaquah, Washington, a small town just near the Cascades, we saw that pretty much every street was lined with people in the small downtown. This is not a typical place for people to turn out. And then we saw the whole field of City Hall was full. And we saw people of all ages, all stages, all abilities, all out saying, hands off our healthcare, hands off our democracy, hands off our everything, education, I mean everything. All the signs were right on target. So I'm still excited. How about you, Fatima?

Fatima Goss Graves: Yeah, it was inspiring. I think people have been waiting to wonder who is going to save us in this time. Who's going to come and save us? And what I think This Weekend demonstrated is that we're all going to save ourselves, that it is possible to show up with your friends, your loved one, your neighbors, to show up in support of Medicaid, to show up in support of federal workers, to show up for just fairness in this country. And that's what you saw. My, you know, D.C. had thousands and thousands of people, but my favorite ones was sort of looking around at the smallest towns where 200, 300 people got together, people who had never showed up for a protest, and they felt connected not only to each other, but to people around the world. And so I think this is just the beginning. I think we will continue to see more opportunities for people to engage, walk with their bodies, continue to make phone calls, continue to show up at town halls, and to continue to find spaces of voice in their dissent.

Carol Jenkins: So I know that you both are participating and are happy with the results of that. I read somewhere three and a half million. They may still be counting, right? But a small display of activity. But you both, each individually and together, are doing so much for, and you know, our topic here is America's children, you know, the child poverty rates, their mothers, and what we do about all of that. Where would you say we are? And I know that there are all kinds of, I just saw the draft of the letter about the education department. You've got a lot going on. The lawyers, if we begin to list them, you know, it's incredible. Fatima, tell us about what's going on at the moment.

Fatima Goss Graves: So, right now, there are sort of two things that I want people to be paying attention to. And they're not disconnected ideas, but 1 is the slash and burn that you are seeing across the federal government and agencies that are designed to support families to focus on the well being of children. The Department of education, health and human services. And so we saw not only giant layoffs of federal civil servants, but huge cuts in the essential programs. We've heard from the last week from health head start programs that say they have no one in their region to contact anymore because they just, without notice, shut down offices. School districts who have, with no notice, lost hundreds of billions of dollars And so we have to really worry about what is happening at that level, all while we cannot take our eye off an even bigger fight. And that is over the upcoming effort to not only secure trillions of dollars in tax cuts for billionaires in this country, and at the same time to try to pay for that by slashing essential programs that families rely on, whether it be health care or food assistance or housing. And so holding those two really big deals at the same time can really be hard. And there are some legal strategies at work. But in the end, it's going to be the people consistently engaging that's going to make a difference.

Carol Jenkins: The tax talks going on even as we speak, I just saw a report that the Republicans have an idea about the child tax credit. The law center sent out a caution about exactly what that means. If you could talk to us about how phrasing will take place going forward in this discussion.

Fatima Goss Graves: I think people have to look very, very closely at the policies that are being put forward, in part because, you know, it's not a secret around how to do things like reduce poverty in this country. Poverty is 100% a policy choice. We have seen that over time. We know what it is like to invest in families and to allow them to thrive. And we also know what happens when we don't do that. And so our really significant caution to anyone who is paying attention is not going to be enough to just say the words. and assume that everyone will be okay. And it is also not going to be enough to sort of put a shiny object out there and cut everything else in people's lives to give you a handful of dollars more. Meanwhile, you cut your health care, you make it harder to afford food, you make your housing more expensive, all of that happening at the same time. And so we want people to be really, really careful in how it is they understand the proposal that is on the table and what it will do to this country if we extend and make permanent trillions of dollars in tax cuts for billionaires in this country.

Carol Jenkins: Kristin, some of the things you're looking out for?

Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner: We are not surprisingly on exactly the same page as Fatima and the National Women's Law Center at MomsRising. We are very concerned. Agree on those two levels. What is Donald Trump doing with his weird tantrums and tariffs and just random firings? It's chaotic. It is not good for our economy. It's not good for our families. We have the stock market plummeting. We have the cost of eggs and food and rent rising. This is the opposite of what Donald Trump promised. We need to pay attention. We need to make sure we're registered to vote. We need to vote in every election. We need to not give up. This is a marathon, not a sprint. At the same time, as Fatima said, we have a situation where we have Republican leadership in Congress trying to cut the very programs that allow businesses to thrive, that allow families to thrive, that allow us to go to work, contribute to our communities, and build a better America. Right? Like, things haven't been perfect. We've always been building toward better, but the answer is to not go after. Cutting Medicaid for 80 million people and cutting Medicaid overall also cuts things like rural hospitals, which we really need. It also cuts things like access to people becoming doctors because Medicaid covers residencies in the doctor education program. It cuts so much infrastructure. People will not know the impact of what's cut until it's too late, and that is our concern. Similarly, child care. Fatima was just talking about Head Start centers closing. People need to be able to have child care so they can go to work, so kids can thrive, and so child care workers can earn living wages and stay in their profession. We can go through every single one of the policies that Republicans are trying to cut right now, again, simply to give more tax breaks, more money to people who are already wealthy, like Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. They don't need more money. But what's important about this is the moment that we're in is not good. And I say this, as I also say, listeners, the moment we're in is one where your voice matters more than ever. So don't give up when I say it's not good. Know that your voice is needed and it matters. But you know, this was one of the first years where the wage gap between women and men went up. We've got the impacts of the negative Trump policies only three months in, really significant in our economy. We're maybe looking at a recession because of his policies. So we know that those care infrastructure policies, health care, child care, paid family medical leave, even the child tax credit, actually help boost our economy and boost families. Because when women win, we all win. We actually fuel the economy with our consumer spending. So we're watching the two tracks, we're taking action in every moment, we're reaching out to our members of Congress every single day, and we're sending letters to the editor, we're doing all the things, marching in the streets, and I hope all of your listeners are too, because again, together our voices are powerful, necessary, and we will win.

Carol Jenkins: Fatima, I see that the Law Center is actually keeping track of people getting fired in the government. Talk to us about that and the importance of that, because there is a hope that many of those people will be going back to work if we knew who they were and what they did.

Fatima Goss Graves: One of the things that we think is important is to provide radical transparency and visibility into what exactly is happening. And that is why we started a tracker of the firings of federal workers. We thought it was important for all of us to be able to see how many people were losing their jobs who worked at the Department of Labor and were responsible for things like ensuring that you could be safe on the job or that wage theft claims were processed, how many people were fired from the IRS. how many people were fired for the Department of Education, et cetera. And so what you can do on our website is go to our resource we have by agency where you can see the total number of firings that have happened and the total number that they say they are planning to fire overall. And then we tell you a little bit about what that agency does, because what we realize is that a lot of people understand that government does important things in their lives, but the details of where and how and who, you know, you shouldn't have to keep track of that. You rely on responsible governance to keep track of that for you. Now, everyday citizens are having to speak up, call their member, and explain this number of people were fired for an agency that matters. This agency matters in my life for this reason. I need you to do something about it.

Carol Jenkins: Fatima, addressing the issue of the place of law firms and lawyers and, you know, so many people thought that that would be the last line of defense. And now we see that they are being struck. Talk to us about what we can expect in the courts to actually help our children.

Fatima Goss Graves: Well, the first thing I really want to name is that the courts themselves have continued to be essential. They have largely been doing their job and fulfilling their function and holding the line around the rule of law. and doing so under direct threats from the administration, threatening to impeach judges who release opinions that are absolutely consistent with the law, direct threats on individual judges and their lives. You know, it is not easy doing the work of justice in this time. And so that part has given me a lot of hope. The National Women's Law Center has been able to file cases. Many of our partners have filed cases to uphold the rule of law. At the same time, we're seeing something that everyone needs to be aware of and watch, and that is that the White House and Donald Trump himself have been threatening lawyers directly with executive orders. You've seen this going after law firms, law firms who some of whom had partners who were involved in investigations of his past conduct. But some of the reason they're going after these lawsons is that they have a long track record of being effective, of providing pro bono work, of being core to the administration of justice. And we've seen two different reactions. There have been some law firms that have said, this is totally illegal and we are going to fight. And they have so far been winning. Unfortunately, we've also seen law firms who have said, we don't think we will weather the storm with the administration. And they have gone to him to get a deal, basically, get what the president had been calling a settlement, as if these law firms have done anything wrong. They've broken the laws. But in the end, they're seeking protection from unfair investigation, unfair enforcement, and then banning them from actually being involved in the federal government at all. They have banned law firms from even going into federal buildings. That would include courthouses. How are you to be a lawyer at a law firm if you cannot represent your client in a courthouse? So he's going after their fundamental models of how they operate in the world.

Carol Jenkins: Both of your organizations have the Gender Equity Coalition. Talk with us about that, this powerful group of organizations that are working for families, children, the mothers who are facing, in most instances, the cutbacks from Medicaid and SNAP and all.

Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner: It's a powerful coalition of over a hundred groups and we are coming together united with the demands that we make sure that every single person can thrive in America and that we end the racism, misogyny and classism that is impacting us right now and that the programs and policies of the Republicans in Congress and Donald Trump are making worse. and I wanna share that with everybody who's listening. There is a movement rising. The thoughts, the feelings, the concerns that you're having listening right now are shared by people across the country. Right now, Moms Rising alone is one in 300 people in America. Our membership is about 1.2 million active people. We have members in every state in the nation. So as you are sitting here thinking, what are we gonna do? The answer is in the we. We are going to not give up. We are going to rise and we're going to rise across organizations, not just MomsRising, but across coalitions like we're just talking about right now. And there are many coalitions that are rising together. And the power that we have together and the persistence that we have together is truly unstoppable. One of the greatest dangers in this moment is that we would give up hope. When you look at the news headlines, when you dive into what's happening, it looks hopeless. I won't lie. So to all the people who are thinking about coalitions, about organizations, about what's happening in the headlines, about the stock market showing that Donald Trump is really hurting our economy, I would just say, take a news break. But don't take a break from being active in organizations. Because the news is probably going to continue and may even get weirder, but the organizing, the movement of National Women's Law Center, Moms Rising, National Domestic Workers Alliance, Caring Across Generations, Care Can't Wait, and the coalitions is going to continue. So to you, Fatima.

Fatima Goss Graves: The only other thing I would add to my dear friend, Kristin, is there's this long adage that you can go fast by yourself, but you can go far together. And I really believe that this is a time where we need to go together. We need to be linking arms. and building the majority that is fighting for the future that we all deserve. So every week, folks get on these calls to share rapidly what has happened, to engage people around the country, to get people to show up together. We've been doing it well before this time, and it is only all the more important right now.

Carol Jenkins: And especially the work being done for our trans children, our LGBTQ children, our foster children, that you've highlighted that is very encouraging.

Fatima Goss Graves: One of the things that I know is that every time something bad happens in the world, in the economy, some level of incompetence that we're seeing coming out of this administration, they look for one of three scapegoats. It is either trans children, immigrants, or sometimes vague notions of D. And right now, trans children are caught in the terrible crosshairs of them trying to distract the country from many, many fundamental things that are real problems in our economy, and also capitalizing the fact that the truth is many people don't know trans people in their lives, and they see them as an easy, easy target. And shamefully, they are doing it in the name of defending and protecting women. So groups like the National Women's Law Center have been clear that not in our name. You will not attack and bully any population of people in this country in the name of protecting and defending women.

Carol Jenkins: Excellent. And I see another date in April that there may be people on the streets again.

Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner: There are dates and dates and dates coming up for people to get out of the house, raise their voice, stand up for justice, stand up for education, stand up for the court, stand up for Medicaid, stand up for trans kids, stand up for every child, stand up. And the thing is, is we have a drumbeat of activations going. Again, this is a marathon, not a sprint. And the idea is that each time we stand up, we bring five more friends. Maybe just one more friend. So the first time you stand up, maybe with your Nana. The second time you stand up, with your Nana, and maybe two more Nanas. The third time you bring some ants, then maybe you can bring some neighbors. And soon we get to the tipping point. Actually, I think we're already at the tipping point, people. But soon we get to an even bigger tipping point. Now, we have some big things that have happened recently that show us that we are likely at a tipping point that I just want to bring into the room that have happened this past week. In the past week, we had Wisconsin win a state Supreme Court race, even though Elon Musk brought his illegal, tricky, and ridiculous tactics that he used to ridiculously grab Pennsylvania in 2024. People in America have woken up and realized what Elon Musk is doing and know the power of the people is more than a billionaire. So Wisconsin is a big sign that hope is changing. Second, Florida. While we didn't win back those two seats in Florida in the House, guess what happened? The gap between Democrat and Republican vote narrowed so much. There was a 34 point gap in one of those races, meaning 34 points more for Republicans than for Democrats going into that. The gap narrowed so much that we know that if the midterms had been held last Tuesday, we would have won back the U.S. House, because we only need three seats to win back the U.S. House. This is in 2026, or yeah, 2026, people. It's soon. So, there's 15 seats that are already had a five-point differential in the last election. We only need three of those 15 if we had had that race, that election last Tuesday in Florida. through the country, we would have the House back right now, maybe even the Senate too. So those are really good signs. The third thing, Cory Booker, U.S. Senator Cory Booker. He stood up, he read our stories, he spoke out, and he really showed us that standing up and speaking out can shift the narrative, shift the hope, shift the energy, and really show us that we can keep fighting. And so there's more things that have happened positively in the past week. There's a whole lot of things that have happened horribly. The horrible things remind us that we need to keep going. I would say I'm the most cheerful, furious person you've ever met. But the horrible things remind us to keep going. But the positive things remind us to keep hope alive and that we together eventually will win. One of the things we're fighting, to Fatima's point, is fatalism and people giving up. I call it hate spaghetti. Talking about hate, talking about harm, talking about negative things, talking about anger is twice as neurologically sticky as positive. The Republicans are totally utilizing that as they are attacking repetitively, like hate spaghetti to see what sticks at the wall, communities that should never be attacked. And so when you see something hateful, I want everybody who's listening to think about, look up and look around and think of something positive and know whoever is saying the hate, you want to ask yourself, are they accurate? What are they trying to distract me from? Maybe I should be doing the opposite.

Carol Jenkins: So, we had Cory Booker's tremendous 24-hour display. We also heard from President Obama, and we also heard from Kamala Harris, comments about the contagion of fear and of courage. What are your thoughts, as we close out, and the fact that Cory was talking, he bested, you know, segregationists on the floor, your thoughts on that?

Fatima Goss Graves: One of the things that Senator Booker said was just because you can't do everything doesn't mean that you shouldn't do anything. And I think that lesson, that lesson of do your part, do your piece, do your thing is one that will be contagious, not just in the Senate, for all of us around this country. Just because you can't win the whole thing right now doesn't mean that you should sit at home with your bowl of ice cream, not anti-ice cream. So that inspiring act of taking on these times and also taking on Strom Thurmond's record, It bullied me. Yes, it wasn't everything, but it showed us you can fight and use the power you have. But here's what I will say about it. It's a thing I've been trying to get across for a while, that she said, and that is courage, it's contagious. If you see one act, one person, it will inspire you and remind you that you too can be courageous. And this is a time with a lot of fear. It's going to take a lot. But if you don't remember anything else from this time and from this last week, it is that if one person can be courageous, you can be courageous too.

Carol Jenkins: Well, thank you both so much. You do give us courage in everything that you do. And I've been, of course, fans of both of yours since you were in elementary school.

Fatima Goss Graves: We're lifelong fans.

Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner: Yes. We're in your fan club. Thank you both so much.

Carol Jenkins: We wrap up our episode with the closing words of Senator Cory Booker. At the end of his record-breaking 25-hour filibuster address, he reminded us of the plea of the late civil rights hero, Congressman John Lewis.

Senator Cory Booker: And so I've tried over the last 25 hours and one minute to center the conversation back on what will we do of good conscience People who are saying, I serve this country, I risk my life, shouldn't be able to keep my job. People are saying this country once made itself the envy of the world because we invested in high quality education for every child. I don't like what's going on at the end of the Department of Education. People are saying I worked harder than I ever have, but the prices on everything in my life are getting higher. people who are saying that the America I learned about in school, the one where people's rights are protected, the people are saying that why are we yet again going to another health care battle that threatens millions of people, the people are saying that I'm worried about the financial security and the future of my country, the voices of folks. And so I end by saying simply this, where I started was John Lewis. I don't know how to solve this. I don't know how to stop us from going down this road. Chuck Schumer's now told me that they're greasing the skids to do these things. I'm sorry. But I know who does have the power. The people of the United States of America. The power of the people is greater than the people in power. It is time to heed the words of the man I began this whole thing with, John Lewis. I beg folks, to take his example of his early days where he made himself determined to show his love for his country at a time the country didn't love him, to love this country so much, to be such a patriot that he endured beatings savagely on the Edmund Pettus Bridge, at lunch counters, on freedom rides. He said he had to do something. He would not normalize a moment like this. He would not just go along with business as usual. He wouldn't know how to solve it, but there's one thing that he would do that I hope we all can do that I think I get a little bit of tonight. He said for us to go out and cause some good trouble, necessary trouble, to redeem the soul of our nation. I want you to redeem the dream. Let's be bold in America. not to mean and degrade Americans, not divide us against each other. Let's be bolder in America with a vision that inspires, with hope that starts with the people of the United States of America. That's how this country started. We, the people. Let's get back to the ideals that others are threatening. Let's get back to our founding documents, that those imperfect geniuses had some very special words at the end of the Declaration of Independence. It was one of the greatest in all of humanity declarations of interdependence. When our founders said we must mutually pledge, pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor. We need that now. From all Americans, this is the moral moment. It's not left or right, it's right or wrong. It's getting good trouble. My friend, Madam President, I yield the floor.

Carol Jenkins: Thanks so much for joining us on the Invisible Americans podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts. But we urge you to visit our website for transcripts, show notes, research, and additional information about our guests and their work. That's www.theinvisibleamericans.com. Please follow us on social media and our new YouTube channel. And our blog posts are up on Medium as well as our website. That's www.theinvisibleamericans.com. Jeff and I will see you the next time.

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