Carol Jenkins:
Hello and thanks so much for joining the Invisible Americans podcast with Jeff Madrick and Carol Jenkins. We address the travesty of child poverty here.

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Jeff Madrick:
There are nearly 13 million children living in serious material deprivation in America and we don't see them. They are our invisible Americans and we plan to change that.

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Carol Jenkins:
A couple of words about us. The podcast is based on Jeff's book, Invisible Americans, The Tragic Cost of Child Poverty. He's an economics writer, author of seven and co-author of another four books on the American economy.

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Jeff Madrick:
And Carol is an Emmy-winning journalist, activist and author, most recently president of the ERA Coalition, working to amend the Constitution to include women.

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Carol Jenkins:
And we are longtime colleagues and friends. In today's episode, we explore an innovative training program that helps the unemployed youth in our communities and the elderly who need care. We look at the street medicine program in the Bronx that delivers care to thousands of the unhoused from a van parked across the street from Lincoln Hospital. And we meet the new president of the New York State Children's Defense Fund, as the need to defend our children intensifies.

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Christopher Kelly Davis:
My experience at SkillSpring, it was challenging for me because I was homeless. So it was a matter of getting up every day, getting to class, and making sure I could finish.

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Carol Jenkins:
Chris is talking about the challenges he faced becoming a certified nursing attendant. It's an ingenious solution to two of our major problems, few jobs for young people in underserved communities and a staggering lack of trained help for the rapidly increasing elderly who need care. The new Jewish home in New York City, founded back in 1848, a leading provider of rehab and residential services for seniors, has found a cure. It's called SkillSpring, a three-month supported training for a CNA license, with a guarantee of a job at the end. We talked with Dr. Jeffrey Farber, President and CEO of the New Jewish Home, along with Christopher Kelly Davis and Denim Ellis, graduates of the program and now employees of the New Jewish Home. In the last two conversations, I'm joined by co-host David Ambrose, author of the memoir, A Place Called Home, in which he describes his life as a child of poverty, including living in the New York City subway system with his mother and siblings. So, Dr. Farber, thanks for being with us today. Tell us about Skillspring.

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Dr. James Farber:
There's nothing more that I'd like to do than talk about SkillSpring, which in Jewish homes, 177-year legacy of innovations is one of the latest and greatest. It really addresses two of the most fundamental challenges that we see facing our industry today, and I would argue, you know, larger society writ large. I mean, one is the fact that we have an unprecedented workforce shortage crisis in aging services. We at the New Jewish Home kind of saw this coming almost 20 years ago in 2006 when we came up with this idea, which started with an idea to say, hey, why don't we connect with a local public high school, you know, in our neighborhoods here in Harlem and New York City and in the Bronx and help some kids after school come and work with us. We'll help them with school, but we'll also prepare them and train them. to become certified nursing assistants, and patient care technicians, and home health aides, and a whole host of really entry-level, hands-on, high-touch jobs with older adults. We had no idea the crisis that we'd be in today, which was ramping up even pre-pandemic, and then the pandemic blew everything widely out of proportion. And now it's one of the largest challenges facing the entire industry. So we've got a solution. We have a homegrown solution to create a workforce. The second issue that it addresses is really creating opportunities for youth, young adults in under-resourced communities. It's not just a job. Like, we offer career, mentorship, stability, pathways, good-paying jobs, solid benefits, and a well-trodden career path with a career ladder for those that are interested in pursuing further advanced training education. And we've been doing it successfully for years. And then I'll say one more thing. I'm sorry, the third thing. I know I said two, Carol, The other thing that it addresses, which is near and dear to my heart as a geriatrician, is the ageism in this country. There is just rampant ageism that you can see at every level of society, both within the medical establishment, that I worked and trained in as a physician and within society writ large, where generally speaking, you know, we don't invest in, care about, take concern for older adults, which is why, you know, our vision is a whole new reality where society embraces its oldest adult members. So now we've got hundreds, we have over a thousand now, young people in their formative years, teenage years, young adult years, young 20s. developing meaningful interactions and relationships with older people, sometimes in their 8th, 9th, 10th decades of life, and they're not afraid to step foot in the door, right? They're not afraid to say, I'm with somebody who has wrinkles, who needs assistance to get out of bed, who needs help with eating and using the restroom. And that is, you know, for me, one of the, just as important as the other two. It's really equally transformative.

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Carol Jenkins:
Quite a combination of really positive, positive goals. Denim, if you could talk with us about your experience with it. Is it true? It's a three-month program. You went through it, and how was it?

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Denim Ellis:
It was honestly eye-opening. coming back from being in a one-on-one like school learning setting, being in college and then going from high school straight to college, you know, you never are able to bridge that gap from being a student in a classroom to being a student in the field. It was a very amazing opportunity that I had that fell into my lap at the time that I needed it. The program for the three months went by super quickly. It wasn't as strenuous. It wasn't something that I wanted to not continue, not finish. It was something that I knew I could make it to the end because I had such an immense amount of support with me. Only being 19, like being in that field, it's very difficult for not only adults to respect you as an equal, but for you to hold yourself up to that standard because you know that you are now in an environment where it's difficult for us. And we have to stick together in that. And I'm glad that Skill Spring was able to bring a bunch of younger people and people just like me all together, different age groups, but same mission, same idea. And I've made a lot of great friendships that I still have now, that we still continue to push each other to grow and become more and bigger things. But then that also made me realize that I really value what I do with these people. and so many experiences that I've had that opened my eyes and showed me that it's more than the superficial things. It's more than the big names of things, because people like us and the job we do, it's very big. It takes up everything, honestly. There's nursing homes and rehab places on every corner, everywhere. It's everywhere, especially in the Bronx. these communities is just around and nobody wants them. And it's like, why? And then you get there and then you realize that it's like, oh, this is just a lovely community. I would love to be here. So it's great.

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Carol Jenkins:
Great. And Chris, your experience?

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Christopher Kelly Davis:
My experience with SkillSpring was, it was challenging for me because I was homeless. So it was a matter of, you know, getting up every day, getting to class, and making sure I could finish. And one of the things about me is I'm the type, once I start something, I have to finish it. So there is no try again, there is no more or less I'm gonna hit it on the head the first time and work through. And it was an eye opener for me because it showed how I treat people and how it makes me feel by treating people well. It's rewarding. A lot of my residents from other facilities still call me to this day. Once they left, they get my number, they call me, they check on me, I check on them. I still have family members that still call me from day to day. It's a rewarding process. I've been doing it for almost two and a half years now. So, for me, I'm a little more in-depth in the field than them. So, for me, it's like every interaction I meet with a resident, I try to make sure they experience the best care they ever received in their life. I try to make sure that I'm that liaison for their happiness and their health and well-being, every day I try to make sure I encourage them to do something they've never done before, or encourage them to try to do things on their own. Because a lot of people, when you're nursing home, they tend just to leave you there and let you figure it out on your own. I'm not that person. I'm that brace that's going to keep you motivated to want to get better, to want to do more for yourself, to want to get that independence and freedom that I know they also dearly miss. It was just a great experience for me. I just took it to heart and kept pushing forward. My end goal, I want to be an orthopedic surgeon, but for now, I want to be a registered nurse. That's my end goal.

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Carol Jenkins:
So you want to be a surgeon. You want to go to medical school.

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Christopher Kelly Davis:
Yes.

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Carol Jenkins:
How are you now in that process?

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Christopher Kelly Davis:
I finished my patient care technician in June. And after that, I'll be attending nursing school. And after that, I don't know where I'll go to medical school. And wherever God or wherever my journey falls, I know I'm gonna be okay. As long as I got skills to bring my corner, I'm all right.

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Carol Jenkins:
Plastic, Dana, what's your plan?

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Denim Ellies:
My plan is to be a licensed practitioner nurse at LPN. However, I would love to be in medicine because it's just a great bridge and it's just a great way to bridge the gap between, you know, just, just racially and just a lot of things going on. It's just, it would be great to have me in there.

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Carol Jenkins:
This is so encouraging, Dr. Farber. Again, the program is three months, and I understand that child care is provided if need be. And what else comes along with, in addition to the great support you obviously have given to Denim and Chris,

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Dr. James Farber:
Yeah, I think that's part of the secret sauce and why we have now achieved graduation rates that are, you know, 99%, right? And I think Denham talked a little bit about it in terms of the chemistry between her fellow students and how they help each other and support one another. We have over 40% of our students that have, like Chris, experienced homelessness. We have a similar percent that are Young parents and, you know, how do they handle coming full-time to immerse themselves in a really serious, you know, job preparation program for three months when they have responsibilities to care for a young child. So, we provide child care. We help with transportation, which is a big issue. Mentorship is a big issue. We have a lot of young students, you know, that may not have had professional experience in the workforce before. that, you know, need help to prepare for how do you enter the workforce, what's professional etiquette, you know, like what does it mean in terms of reporting to your supervisors and how do you interact appropriately with your fellow co-workers and colleagues. So, there's lots of mentorship and we've been building that out actually more, recently becoming a registered apprenticeship program with some city and state funding that we've been seeking to support growth of the program. which we have grown. I mean, we're not doing it just for our own organization, though I love that Denim and Chris work with us here. We have four other non-profit aging service providers that we've helped them, you know, train and we do the work and then they work there. So, there's a lot of sort of, I'd say, what we call wraparound or, you know, non-traditional supports that our young students really need in order to be successful in the program.

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Carol Jenkins:
You see that you guarantee a job offer at the end of the program, and the New Jewish Home has hired many of them, but as you say, providing for other nursing homes.

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Dr. James Farber:
That's right. I mean, one of the most unique aspects of the program, and unlike many others that work to train early or new entrants into fields, we start off with a guaranteed job offer. And, you know, we started with us, but then we also have now, and that's not a hard sell. Like, everybody wants and needs staff. And so, when we say, hey, do you want to work with us, you know, their hand shoots up in the air and what can we do and how can we also get access to the staff and young people that are joining the organization. It's really remarkable.

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Carol Jenkins:
Fantastic program. So, Denim, what would you say to prospective students out there? How do you get them to come join you all in this CNA program?

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Denim Ellies:
To those students coming in or possibly thinking of continuing furthering their education, there's so many routes you can take and you do not have to go the standard college route that you want to go because even if it doesn't work out, the world doesn't end. There's more and so many more opportunities nowadays in 2025. There's so many more opportunities and different passages and ways that you can go and people that will back you, people that will support you if you don't have a support system, if you don't think anybody else will believe in you. Like, as long as you believe in you, something is going to work.

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Carol Jenkins:
Chris, what about your advice?

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Chris Kelly-Davis:
My advice to incoming students would be to trust yourself and lean on SkillSpring. Don't ever feel like you're alone. Don't ever feel like you can't do it because you can do it. I always try to tell people it always could be worse. So make do with what you have, you know, and try to do your best and aim to do your best. And if you need help, ask for help. Don't ever feel like you have to figure it out on your own because that's not what SkillSpring is here for. First and foremost, it's a CNA program. It's a family. And you trust your family. And once you trust your family, you can finish this program. No questions asked. Easy. I love it.

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Carol Jenkins:
Great. Well, the future Dr. Kelly Davis, I am looking forward to seeing you. And also, Denim, in whatever you do, in license, practice, nursing, I know you're going to be terrific with that, what you bring to the room and your skill set. So thank you both very much. And Dr. Farber, Thank you for devising this program. It gives me great, great hope.

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Dr. James Farber:
It is an absolute pleasure. And working with young people like Chris and Denim and bringing them into the fastest-growing field in the private economy where there's the greatest need for the fastest-growing segment of the population, older adults, is just soul-nourishing. So thank you, and thank you for taking an interest in the program and hearing about what we do.

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Carol Jenkins:
Thank you all very, very much.

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Christopher Kelly Davis:
Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Jenkins. I appreciate it. Thank you for everything you've done for our community. I really appreciate it. My mom is a fan of yours, so once I told my mom, she told me, please tell her that I appreciate everything she's done. So, coming from my mom and coming from our family, thank you. We appreciate it.

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Denim Lee:
Yes, likewise. Thank you. Just for even seeing you, like even being able to talk to you is like a big thing. So, I appreciate you taking out your time and your day to give us some acknowledgement.

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Carol Jenkins:
It is totally, totally my honor. You all are fabulous. Thank you so much. Dr. Juliette Widoff is medical director of a safety net clinic at Lincoln Hospital in the Bronx, geared to serve the medically complex problems of the chronically unhoused. Every Wednesday, she steps out of the hospital to a van parked nearby. where she and her team, a medical associate, addiction counselor, a social worker, will see patients, an average of nearly 100 a day. They're ready with snacks, with hygiene kits, and treatment. Formerly known as the Street Health Outreach and Wellness Van, on the street, it's the Show Van. Dr. Widoff says that while she does not care for children here, almost every unhoused patient she sees was once a child of poverty. Juliet, thanks so much for being with us today. The work that you're doing in the Bronx, this kind of outreach is just incredible. If you could tell us how you came to do it.

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
Thanks so much for having me. It's my pleasure to be here. I've done work of this sort many times over the years. At the beginning, In the early 90s, I was part of doing syringe exchange work, which is inevitably out in the field. And then I also worked doing street-based outreach to women who were living and working on the street with an organization that was called Frosted, also in the 90s. And then I went to medical school. and have been in and out of doing a variety of different types of low-threshold care.

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Carol Jenkins:
When you say low-threshold care, what do you mean by that?

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
I mean, care that doesn't require people to cross a threshold to get there and where they can ask for specifically what they need. I think oftentimes when you go into a doctor's office, they have an agenda as well as you may have an agenda. And I think of a lot of what I do as allowing people to set their own agendas.

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David Ambroz:
For folks who may not know you, what exactly do you do? What is the day-to-day for you out there on the street?

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
So, currently, I am the medical director for a safety net clinic, which is an actual brick and mortar clinic within Lincoln Hospital in the South Bronx that provides care to folks with complex chronic medical conditions who are experiencing homelessness. That can be street-based homelessness. It can be sheltered homelessness. It can, in some circumstances, be couch surfing. And then I also run a street medicine unit called a show van, which goes out into the community and provides services, sometimes just on foot and sometimes on the van itself to folks who are also experiencing homelessness and who are drug using folks.

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David Ambroz:
I just wonder, you know, many of the listeners may not realize just how broken the system is, and what you're saying really resonates with me. As a kid, your van may have pulled up where I was. What does it look like from your side? What does the system look like from your side? And when someone living in poverty tries to get health care, what is that like for them normally without your kind of service?

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
It's very complicated and there are so many different people living in poverty and so many different experiences of the health care system. It's hard for me to kind of make a broad generalization about what someone experiences. You know, the obvious things are the questions of insurance status and how much folks are going to get charged for any given experience. So, that's kind of the first threshold that I think is a gatekeeper for a lot of folks. And then there's all the judgment that comes at people when they are using substances. They may not be using substances, but when you are experiencing homelessness, you can't always get clean and stop smelling through, you know, all the obvious reasons that that's impossible. So, the hospital that I work out of is part of the public hospital system, and the public hospital system is so much better at trying to care for folks in these various circumstances than occurs generally in this country, in that we care for everyone regardless of their ability to pay, regardless of their immigration status, regardless of whether they are eligible or not to get insurance of any sort, and there is a specific insurance for folks who aren't eligible for Medicaid, but who need regular medical care, that is an option for people going through that system. But it's a very complex system to traverse. I used to work at a federally qualified health center that had probably a broader swathe of the population attending it because it was very mission-driven. And so I had people with private commercial insurance and I had people who had no insurance and no possibility of getting insurance as well as people who are on Medicaid. And what I realized sort of traversing the sort of wide variety socioeconomically is that everyone feels uncomfortable getting medical care. Like it's a, you know, the language that gets used that there's so many pieces to make sense of and there's so many power dynamics that occur in a doctor's office. So, even folks with a great deal of education and privilege often feel uncomfortable and uncertain and anxious

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David Ambroz:
I think everyone listening could feel that. I feel that. And I am very much, you know, someone who goes in with an agenda with my doctor. In fact, recently I'm like, could you please step out from behind your computer and talk to me? I know you have to write everything down. And what you described a few moments ago, so important to underline, which is you were talking about how you treat your patients at your current situation where you work. And what I heard was, regardless of X, Y, and Z, 1, 2, and 3, you treat people and you meet their needs. And sometimes we get very confused, I think, in this country about that, that there's all these obstacles we put between health and the provision of it. and the patient and the doctor, and there's all these things we do. But what I heard you say, and you articulated it more than I am, is when the person comes in, you address their needs. And that's both easy to understand and in this country a little shocking.

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
And it's hard because you are trained as a physician that you have this list of things that need to be addressed. But that list is meaningless if you can't engage the person. You know, I start with their list, not with my list, you know, and that I think that's an important piece of it. The other piece of the work that we do on the street is that we show up with stuff to help folks. We have some food. There is a van that gets parked. I mean, the van doesn't drive around. The van is in one spot and depending on the location. And there are vans throughout the city. So I have one van that's linked to Lincoln Hospital. There's a van that it's linked to Elmhurst. There's one out of Woodhall. And then there are two that are run by Bellevue, neither very proximate to Bellevue. One is down on the Lower East Side and the other is up in Harlem. So the vans stay put. But from where the van parks, we may go out on foot. And so it just depends on the location. And we're always in the same location every week on the same day. So my van is parked in one place three days a week and in a different place on another day of the week.

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Carol Jenkins:
Talk to us, Juliette, about the people who come to your van. You're not only doing medical work, you're doing vaccinations, you're doing referrals. What are they looking for?

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
Different folks are looking for different things. Some folks come to the van and all they want is the food and the hygiene kit. That's sort of our carrot, and sometimes that'll slowly but surely bring folks in. You know, we have a lot of word of mouth now, so I have a huge number of folks who come to me for wound care. because that's such an enormous issue both for folks who are using drugs and for anyone on the street and experiencing homelessness because you get so little time lying down. Your feet are always dependent. And I see a huge amount of different ulcers and wounds on the feet and the lower legs as a result of that. And then we see folks who are interested in engaging in treatment, folks who are looking for housing resources, you name it, everything.

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David Ambroz:
Just following up on that, I'm curious, as you are on the front line and dealing with a lot of folks who have come from different places in life and experiences, what role in your knowledge and experience is trauma playing with these folks, especially the ones that are, you know, when you say wound care, for example, I don't know if everyone knows, but that's when you have a persistent wound that doesn't necessarily heal or close, and so you have to have stability and regular bandage changes and antibiotics, and these are not things that are regularly available to folks on the street. So, what role is trauma playing with these folks that you're interacting with?

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
Trauma is sort of the scaffold on which everyone's existing in the circumstances that they're existing. You know, we see such complex trauma that people have gone through in life. When Carol first asked me about being on your podcast, I thought, well, you focus on children and poverty, and I don't care specifically for children. But I absolutely see the downstream effects of childhood poverty and the trauma that folks experience because that is one of the greatest predictors for adult homelessness. So, I think it is the rare person I see where trauma doesn't play a role in the experiences that they are having and their ability to seek care and to get out of the circumstances that they are in.

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David Ambroz:
Scaffolding,  I mean, that's a very visceral image to have in my head. I think that's very well said.

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Carol Jenkins:
Reading an interview that you gave, and you said that with the patients that you see, the van is placed in a way so that the hospital is clearly visible there, but it might as well be thousands of miles away. They would not go there.

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
It is remarkable. And I, you know, I think this is a little bit specific to the public hospital system and the challenge of providing care within a safety net system. But in every borough, whatever the hospital is, everyone in the surrounding area doesn't want anything to do with that hospital. And they'll actually travel to another borough to a different hospital Because they've just, you know, if you grew up in that community, you've just heard so many terrible things about it. The spot that I go out to every week is literally in the shadow of the hospital. Actually, more and more, we're providing kind of a more robust amount of services on the van. But initially, it was a little bit harder to do some things like, you know, getting blood and imaging and things like that. And I would really try to encourage folks to come in And I've even walked people in to show them exactly where my clinic is, but literally that two blocks might as well be trying to get people to cross the country for their medical care because of all the, you know, you have to pass by a security guard, you have to, I mean, it's so many different pieces, and you have to deal with whatever, all the things that you've grown up hearing about what happened at this hospital, what, you know, what this person's experience was, what that person's experience was. So yeah, there are folks who I know will never actually physically get in the doors of the hospital.

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David Ambroz:
Why do you think these patients that you're seeing, you know, the stories that you're hearing, why do you think they're remaining invisible to the broader public or even policymakers? I'm not hearing many people talk about street medicine or the type of on-the-ground outreach that you're doing in the public dialogue, at least maybe I'm reading the wrong news. When I was preparing for today, I was really struck by just a quick searching how important what you're doing is, how impactful it is. It's almost like on the war front medical care, and I don't hear a lot of talk about it.

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
Unfortunately, the talk that exists about it is in reference to the folks I'm trying to care for as a blight on the system. For so many people, you know, these are the folks that they're scared of in the subway. Not always, but to some extent. There is talk of it, but it's not about how we connect with people and move them. It's that other end of things.

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David Ambroz:
That is very, very, very true. I accept your correction. You're absolutely right. I hear clean it up and the it is referring to people. I always worry when we begin to call a whole people it, we sort of lost the moral thread. as a people and as a country. So I stand corrected. I agree with you from a negative perspective.

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
Yeah, unfortunately, very much so. And I think it's been a source of a bit of amazement to me watching the last five years unfold. So when the pandemic began and the federally qualified health center that I was working at sort of closed for any but the most urgent needs, we partnered with another organization to provide the medical service in a hotel that was housing folks who were experiencing homelessness who had COVID. And over the course of those, you know, the first six months or so, it seemed like people were suddenly recognizing how intertwined our health properly is. And I had all this incredible hope that what would come of this was this understanding that we can't expect ourselves to be healthy if we don't work on the health of everyone. And unfortunately, that hope has not panned out. We don't seem to be have learned those lessons that I thought were flashing neon signs over the course of those first couple of years of the COVID pandemic.

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Carol Jenkins:
Juliette, as we record this, Congress is looking at cuts in Medicaid, which would affect some of your patients.

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
So many of my patients.

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Carol Jenkins:
What's your thinking of what's going to happen and why?

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
It's going to be properly devastating, especially for my folks who are experiencing homelessness, because What really is going to happen is there's going to be a bunch of bureaucratic paperwork involved in maintaining any Medicaid. For folks who are transient, which is just about everyone that I'm caring for, they will likely inevitably be knocked off the rolls repeatedly as a result of the additional documentation that will be required of them. I have to also add in here that the other work that I do and have done for many, many years is in LGBTQ health and the inclusion of an exclusion of gender-affirming care in Medicaid is going to properly devastate. the folks that I care for in that community.

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Carol Jenkins:
What will take the place of that funding if it is cut? Do you see any openings? I mean, does this rely on city, state, private philanthropy? What?

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
So, in New York, we may not see the very worst of this, but I think that in many, many other parts of the country, and especially in states which are poorer, I'm not sure what's going to step in, right? You know, there isn't the resources for folks to step in. I hate to say that I feel like, you know, I think about this in terms of the cuts in international aid and international funding for basic disease management, that people will die. That is just what's going to happen. in this circumstance. I hate to be that glum about it, but I just don't know exactly how. I don't think that there are private resources that are going to come in and suddenly save us.

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David Ambroz:
We can't have a bake sale to get our way out of systemic poverty and the health implications of it. So when you talk to your colleagues, medical colleagues or the hospitals, people other than frontline practitioners, How do you talk to them about this? And do you talk to medical students? How do you get people engaged in this topic? Aside from policymakers, is there a conversation you're having with your colleagues that do some of this work, but not for the patients you're serving? What's that conversation like?

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
It's a very delicate balance. Often the Circumstances in which I wind up talking to folks is when my patients are hospitalized or when they're about to be discharged. And then I will have a lot of, I will try to insert myself into the conversations in a way to ensure that my folks are being well cared for and that there is thought put into the process of caring for them. Try to keep things very, very specific and very concrete. I do talk to medical students and I do talk to residents. Street medicine as an entity has been really, I would say, in the last five years becoming more and more of an interest for folks who are just starting out. in medicine and we see folks in various different areas of medicine being very interested in this type of work. So I'm hopeful that the next generation of providers will really properly consider location and way of engaging people in CARES.

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David Ambroz:
I'm glad you're hopeful. Even in that lane, I'll take it.

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
I am. I mean, I think you don't do this work without being hopeful. And it is incredibly satisfying work to do. It's brutally painful at times, but it is far more often incredibly satisfying. It's very easy to do some good things.

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David Ambroz:
Cynicism is a luxury and the people that you serve can't have us all be cynical and shrug our shoulders. It's very impactful and I'm sure the people you're helping, like my family when we were experiencing homelessness for a very long time, make a real difference. Even just the expression of care and seeing your van I'm sure affects people like us. So I'm glad you're hopeful because I am too. Otherwise, I wouldn't be doing this. We wouldn't be doing this. I can't imagine you wouldn't be doing this.

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
Absolutely. There's no question. I mean, you know, I'm deeply worried about the sort of larger movements afoot, but on an individual and personal and day-to-day basis, I'm always hopeful.

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Carol Jenkins:
Well, Dr. Widolff, thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for your optimism and for the work you do every single day.

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Dr. Juliet Widoff:
Thank you so much. I really appreciated this.

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David Ambroz:
Thank you.

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Carol Jenkins:
The Children's Defense Fund was founded in 1972 by the legendary Marian Wright Edelman. It serves children across the country, including in New York State. We spoke with the new president of CDF in New York. Khin Mai Aung about the current challenges to children in poverty. New York has implemented some groundbreaking projects, including exploring guaranteed income for youth formerly in foster care. Thanks so much for being with us today. Of course. for taking over the Children's Defense Fund work. I'm Marian Wright Edelman, its founder. Tell us a little bit about how you're finding things, the work that you're doing. What's the status report that you issue out?

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Khin Mai Aung:
I started at the Children's Defense Fund at a very interesting time in our history. I'd always wanted to work for the Children's Defense Fund. As an attorney and advocate who has spent her entire career in children's education and youth services, I have always admired CDF's work. And so I think particularly in this era where the rights of the disenfranchised, the rights of immigrants and refugees and individuals at the margins are at risk, and in particular children, from those communities, I'm just really honored to be able to lead our work in the state.

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David Ambroz:
You mentioned it a little bit, but what drew you to their mission? I'm intrigued. CDF has been an organization I have deeply admired. What's unique about CDF that drew you to their advocacy work?

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Khin Mai Aung:
We are the leading and one of the most long-standing youth advocacy organizations that really focus at the intersection of poverty and race. And with deep roots, as you know, in the civil rights movement and also with our work growing and changing and adapting as our community. has changed, but still staying true to our roots in the civil rights movement and the values that motivated Marian Wright Edelman, Mrs. Edelman, and other colleagues in the civil rights movement to dig into this work. In some of my other roles, I've had the privilege of doing this work from particular vantage points that overlap with the work of CDF. I ran the educational equity program at the Asian American Legal Defense Fund. At one point, I did civil rights enforcement for immigrant students. at the New York State Education Department. I did youth civic engagement work focusing on civic education for students of color from low-income communities. So all of these overlap with certain segments, but CDF, it is the only national large-scale organization that works at the intersection of using children, poverty, and race. And so I feel like there are so many different issues that you can deal with, which may differ as far as priority from time to time.

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David Ambroz:
You mentioned it, but I wonder if you talk a little bit more about it. I'm quite passionate about the idea that Those involved should have a voice, and I think you've been an incredible advocate for youth voice. How do you see the role of leaders in changing the systems that affect them and their families?

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Khin Mai Aung:
Absolutely, absolutely. I think genuine youth voice and I think more specifically also the work of specifically impacted youth by policies is really important. You know, I've worked on issues at other organizations where it is generally bringing youth voice to the table in education, for instance, or in city policy, and I think that is also important because There's a lot of work that the education system or city government does to impact all youth, including more privileged youth from all backgrounds. But in particular, when we are talking about policies that impact foster youth, migrant youth, youth who have been in the juvenile justice system, I think it's particularly important to have youth who have experienced those systems in different ways. and draw their perspectives. I think that aspect of the work can be challenging because we want to make sure that we find people that are survivors, find people that are in a position to be able to participate in this work and to support their needs while doing this important work. And that's what CDF does. Governor Kathy Hochul? We are definitely thrilled at the confirmation that the child's tax credit, increasing that for up to $1,000 per child is moving forward in her budget. I think there's still some proposals which we also support from the legislature that need to be worked out before the final budget, but it is absolutely wonderful and a landmark achievement and commitment from our governor to push this forward because- Will you explain the tax credit? So, it's basically, there's a child, the Empire State Tax Credit, and there have been different kind of proposals to increase it in different ways. Part of the reason for this is that it's expensive to raise children in the city. There's over 400,000 children in poverty in New York City alone. And so the governor's proposal is to increase the child tax credit to up to $1,000 per child, but different amounts depending on the age of the child. There have been other proposals including one in the legislature called the Working Families Tax Credit, possibly increase the maximum credit to up to $1,600. Regardless, we support all of these because it's important to have children, and giving that a small amount of money back is something that makes a huge difference for working class families.

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David Ambroz:
Absolutely. Thank you for that background. I think it's such an important policy tool and it can be lost on folks. It's such an interesting way for us to use economics to lift people up. In California, you know, we've worked really hard for foster youth to have increased access and not just access but working with nonprofits to support young people and families as they apply for it. It's not enough to have access, you need to support.

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Khin Mai Aung:
You don't know how to get it.

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David Ambroz:
Damn right. I wonder if in your experience and you're kind of, you've had such a storied career in and around this issue, what do people get wrong about children in poverty? Like what are the misconceptions that you've encountered for the most part? I'm curious. And then what can we do to kind of dispel them in your mind?

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Khin Mai Aung:
I think that children in poverty and families in poverty and children of color in poverty often are stigmatized for the condition of poverty. It's been documented that a lot of the factors that may lead to children being taken away from their homes by the child welfare system are factors related to poverty. in terms of not being able to be there for the children and needing, you know, additional support to help care for them because, you know, they might have to work and other factors related to poverty itself in terms of child care. I think for young families, there can also be the stereotype that if you're in poverty that families rely on cash assistance that may be available to them in order to avoid working. The idea of the welfare mom, that they are having more kids and relying on public assistance in order to just not work. Our research and findings from some of our work have shown that that is really absolutely not the case. And with our Youth in Power temporary direct cash assistance pilot for young people that have recently exited foster care, We gave $1,000 a month to a number of 100 young people that had recently exited foster care and compared the outcomes to a comparable cohort in New York City who did not receive that cash assistance. And the final findings are not out yet. But overall, we found that it makes young people feel more comfortable, safe. It allows them to make their lives more stable. And I think the preliminary results show that it doesn't disincentivize, but rather provides stability so that additional income and work and support can really create conditions of stability.

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David Ambroz:
You touched on it, but it's so interesting. There's almost an element of blame that we collectively have as a society for people in poverty. And what always struck me as a young person growing up, myself homeless and then poverty throughout my entire childhood, was I had no culpability. You know, born into society, I was a child. And so the blame thing has always been interesting to me that kids have some sort of responsibility for their condition when in fact it's the adults and systems around them. So I think you hit on that really well. I think the tax credit is an excellent vehicle for that. It is, I think, nonpartisan and makes so much sense to lift people up. And then finally I'll say, and I'll turn to Carol, but You said it, it's managing to trust. It's not distrusting people in poverty and micromanaging them, but honoring the fact that they probably want to have food and a phone and a better life and managing to trust as opposed to distrust. So I really appreciate that, you know, your voice for that. I know Carol has a very interesting question.

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Carol Jenkins:
I do. Now, as we record this, Nancy is in the midst of doing a couple of things. One, dismantling the education department, and two, looking at cuts, severe cuts in Medicaid. If you could talk to us about how that will affect the work you do with children in poverty.

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Khin Mai Aung:
For me as a lifelong education lawyer, and particularly doing similar work for the New York State Education Department as the Civil Rights Division of the Federal Education Department, this work is near and dear to my heart. I know that it will, at least in the civil rights portion of their work, really prevent the federal department from being able to meaningfully look into complaints of families of potential intentional or inadvertent racial disparities, disparities on gender, as well as, I think most notably, the rights of students with disabilities. The vast majority of the cases of the Department of Education Office of Civil Rights regards disability access. I think there is a serious concern whether our most vulnerable children from communities of color who are facing physical or mental disabilities will be able to access their educational rights. And then I think relatedly, not necessarily resulting in the changes to the Federal Department of Education, there is also a serious concern about immigrant students accessing education itself. Under Plyler v. Doe, clearly stated that all students who are eligible regardless of immigration status have the right to public education, but we have families that are afraid to send their school because ICE may come. And I think these are really remarkably terrifying and challenging times for those of us that support those communities. With regard to Medicaid and cuts in general, federal cuts to agencies, I think that it's very frightening. I think that the large picture is that with the removal of federal funds, it's putting more pressure on the states to be able to make up the difference or to have certain services be cut. And this is, you know, one of the issues that we are looking at with our healthcare-based coalitions. We're part of a number of different healthcare coalitions, such as Healthcare for All New York, Medicaid Matters, and just really looking at what is the impact on the state, on the state budget, and if we have to put money to make up for the shortfall in federal funds, what other services will have to be cut in order to make up that shortfall? And what are areas where the shortfall cannot be made up and the services themselves will have to be cut?

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David Ambroz:
What gives you hope? I mean, you know, when I think about all the challenges, I think all of us are awash. But as a leader, I always laugh on the airplane, you know, and they say, you have to put your mask on before helping others. I'm like, no problem. You don't have to remind me twice. I think if we don't nourish ourselves in the progress we've made so far, in terms of almost every statistic, we will not endure for the long haul, which we must in order to achieve what we need to for the next generation. But what gives you hope? Are there things on the horizon? Are there people? Are there books? Is it just a giant pot of red wine like me on Friday afternoons? What is the thing that keeps you hopeful?

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Khin Mai Aung:
I think all of those things, first of all, I think we're on the same page. I think my colleagues give me hope. Our coalitions give me hope. Former colleagues who have become beloved friends over the years give me hope. We can't do it alone, and I think those of us that do this work professionally, we've kind of moved around over the years into different jobs, different positions. But we retain our network and we meet new colleagues. And I think sometimes we win, sometimes we lose, sometimes we move ahead and make some gains. Sometimes we lose that again. Sometimes we make gains in one area and we move forward, but I know that we are fighting, we keep working, we figure out, is this the moment where it's mostly defensive? Is it an area where we can make forward progress, despite the things that are happening? I think that gives me hope. One of the projects that we are working on in New York State at the Children's Defense Fund, not directly related to these issues of poverty and benefits, but is working on reviving a project from a couple years ago, to pass a state bill to require racial and ethnic impact statements similar to the economic impact statements that some legislation had to pass before implementation of a new law in New York State. And it's something I'm really excited about right now. We have a lot of people who are partners re-looking at revisiting their quote-unquote DII policies. This is one area where the Children's Defense Fund, our background has been rooted in, as I mentioned in the conversation, the intersection of race and children's advocacy, and this is core to our work. And so, we're not planning on retreating from that. I think there are other partners that don't plan on retreating from that. And I believe, ultimately, New York State and our legislature and governor do not wish to retreat from that, notwithstanding that we have to deal with these kind of challenges that are coming our way.

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Carol Jenkins:
We're getting to the closing point, unfortunately. You'll have to come back to ask you about the Child and Family Well-Being Fund. This concept of taking 10 underserved communities and supporting them in every way.

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Khin Mai Aung:
Although policies have been changed in the past to try to provide more restorative justice opportunities to youth that are systems involved in the juvenile justice systems, the intent of sending money to support for rehabilitative purposes and restorative purposes has not fully been effectuated. And the idea of the fund is that money would be, instead of going through like probation and having kind of probation monitoring and pouring into that system, to be sent to community-based nonprofits that support communities that are most impacted by juvenile justice involvement in order to deploy that money for services that are community-based opportunities. So I find it to be really powerful in that it will allow the money to go to the root of the issue and to really go to supportive services as opposed to probation, which I know we need, but which isn't necessarily getting at the root of the system.

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David Ambroz:
I think that's excellent. My final question, which is, is there a book that you're reading that you would recommend to all of us either to get smarter on the topic? A book? Is there a podcast you listen to? Aside from this one, of course, that educates and informs you or inspires you, or even just what do you read or watch or listen to for fun? I mean, I could go down a list, but cooking shows, What is it you would recommend either to get informed or to recuperate? What do you do?

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Khin Mai Aung:
lived in different places in the United States, but I grew up as a teenager, preteen actually, in the South Bay of the San Francisco Bay Area in Mountain View, Palo Alto, and went to high school in Palo Alto. And there is a book that, it's a very long tome, so it's taken me a long time, but it's called Palo Alto. And it is, basically it is a history of California capitalism, of how there's this idea of manifest destiny and people from the East going to the West Coast chasing different dreams, chasing the gold rush. More recently, Silicon Valley and the dot-com boom and continuing tech booms. But how there are, despite these efforts often helping the economic engine how they have disadvantaged and had negative impacts on underprivileged communities, on Native American and Latino migrants. I don't even know if it's fair to call them immigrants at that point, because the borders were not clear. But I find it really interesting, both as in terms of the history of the place that I grew up, where I felt profoundly uncomfortable about the framing of this place as this capitalist engine of creativity, but also to hear about the forgotten history of the people that live there. I think I'm currently right now in the 1930s. Yeah, yeah, it's a long book.

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David Ambroz:
Thank you. It's a real honor to talk to you and hear from you. Thank you. Just applaud the work you do, that you lead, and that the organization does. It's so important. And what gives me hope are people like you doing work locally. We can't necessarily move everything all at once, but the work you're doing, the ideas that you're putting forward in New York, which happens to be a country in and of itself in many respects, can change the world. And as a kid who grew up there, it would have changed my world. So you inspire me, and I thank you for the work you're doing there in New York and teaching all of us to be better and more persistent advocates. So thank you for that. And Carol, we'll wrap this up today, but thank you.

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Khin Mai Aung:
Thank you so much for your kind words.

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Carol Jenkins:
And I just want to say thank you as well, and we'll talk with you again.

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Khin Mai Aung:
Thank you so much.

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Carol Jenkins:
Thanks so much for joining us on the Invisible Americans podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts. But we urge you to visit our website for transcripts, show notes, research, and additional information about our guests and their work. That's www.theinvisibleamericans.com. Please follow us on social media and our new YouTube channel. And our blog posts are up on Medium as well as our website. That's www.theinvisibleamericans.com. Jeff and I will see you the next time.

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